17. Cultivating SelfWork with Psychologist Dr. Margaret Rutherford
I’m joined by Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a psychologist with over 25 years of experience, author of Perfectly Hidden Depression, and host of The SelfWork Podcast. Her research is mainly centered around the mental health effects of perfectionism. She’s passionate about helping people get out of that thought pattern and live authentic, balanced, and healthy lives.
Perfectly Hidden Depression is a compassionate guide that walks readers through the process of understanding their perfectionism, identifying destructive beliefs, and uncovering repressed emotions. Dr. Margaret details tangible tips for quieting that critical inner voice and powerful strategies for coping with difficult feelings, including her ‘5 C’s’ method. She created The SelfWork Podcast, which has over 300 episodes and 3.5 million downloads, to broaden the conversation around mental health.
Dr. Margaret also works closely with This Is My Brave, a non-profit organization that believes in the power of storytelling to break down the stigma surrounding mental illness. This Is My Brave has produced over 75 unique shows in cities across the world and featured nearly 875 storytellers sharing true, personal stories on overcoming depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and more.
Listen to today’s episode to hear how Dr. Margaret is breaking down barriers and normalizing conversations about mental health.
About our guest:
Topics Covered:
How Dr. Margaret made the bold decision to pivot her career from singer to therapist
Recognizing when your actions are driven by the past, and how to shift that narrative
Leaning and growing into your curiosities and passions - even in your 60’s
How to identify signs and symptoms of perfectly hidden depression in your loved ones
The importance of keeping your energy focused on what you have control over
Special Offers:
If there’s a topic or charity you want me to highlight on the podcast, DM it to me on Instagram @getbusylivin_pod
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COMPUTER GENERATED TRANSCRIPT:
Anne Oneil 0:07
Hey, hey, GBLers, welcome to get busy living a podcast that brings inspiring people together to discover what ignites them to be bigger than themselves. I'm your host and O'Neill. What a treat we have for you today. We have my friend and psychologist Dr. Margaret Rutherford on the show. And you will just love her down to earth energy and her Arkansas accent. With over a million downloads just this year, her top ranked podcast called self work, and her book perfectly hidden depression, deliver important and impactful experiences and practices in all things. Mental Health. Enjoy this insightful, funny and story filled conversation with the inspiring Dr. Margaret.
Where do you start? I mean, we have we have Dr. Margaret Rutherford here with us today. And she is just incredible. We actually, geez, we started to be friends through one of our South Florida friends, Cindy Metzler, and
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 1:16
two and a half years
Anne Oneil 1:17
ago, yes, yes. And just have been able to kind of stay in touch and continue our conversations, whether it was athletics and mental health or trying to navigate our way through COVID. And you just have such a tremendous career and insight. Whenever I'm listening to your podcast or listening your book, it just feels like you're the most down to earth person, like I'm in a coffee shop, just talking and being like, it's okay to talk about these tough conversations. So, so great to have you here.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 1:47
Well, thank you, I guess I am pretty down to earth, I gave up that whole jar agonistic thing after I'd been a therapist for a couple of years. So I thought, this is boring. I just need to bring myself into the therapeutic situation. And, and so I have tried to be very, oh, not all problems can be overly simple. We certainly don't want to oversimplify anything. But at the same time, you know, it doesn't have to be described in terms that are somehow hard to understand. And it's just, I guess, given also my Arkansas background, it's just get to the point.
Anne Oneil 2:24
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. And, you know, it's interesting, I know, some people will be tuning in and you know, the the theme is get busy living and about good vibes. But mental health is so important to take care of to be able to kind of encompass your entire life and you know, be out here focusing on mental health, but also your emotional health. It's a full encompassing whole body experience. So that's why I wanted to have and chat away with you.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 2:52
You bet. Because I think that, you know, I was not a, I was not a mental health professional. That was not my first career. I was a jingle singer. I sang radio and television commercials in Dallas for seven or eight years. And then, but I wasn't, I didn't feel like I had a lot of fulfillment in my life. I was constantly selling myself. And, you know, the music business is a hard, hard business. And I really wasn't cut. I love singing but I wasn't cut out for the business. And I realized my own my own energy about my life. And it was just getting sucked into this. This lifestyle. I did not they didn't prefer me and that I didn't prefer wasn't bringing out the best in me either. I have to say, I'm gonna be perfectly honest. Okay. So I heard about this thing called music therapy. And that was random. A guy named Ivan showed up on my gig one night and said he was studying music therapy as a witness. It was music therapy. Oh, I love that. I had been volunteering at the battered women's shelter. And that had been very fulfilling for me and just again, had that sort of sense of this has some motivation. I know what I'm doing. I really like helping people. But I did not have a psychology background. So I had to go way back and take all kinds of courses. So literally, and it took me nine years, from the time that Ivan came on my gig and about music therapy, to where I got my PhD in Clinical Psychology. And so it was a it was a tremendous learning experience. And I have so loved being a therapist, because often you are trying to find people you're trying to help people whose lives have somehow been either they've never quite gotten where they want to be because of abuse or trauma in their past they've always felt sort of, like life was passing them by or they would they had not reached their potential. Or they've gotten sidetracked somehow they've gotten derailed, and so you're trying to help people get back, you know, where they want to go Maybe they're dealing dealing with anxiety or depression or trauma of some kind. And it's such an honor to be, to hold that role in someone's life to hold that safe space for them to do the work they need to do to, to find a way for their lives to become more enriching, and to where they discover their own sense of power. And you know, I'm a huge advocate of your power does not lie in all of your strengths. And no, it's just our strengths. I think your power lies in accepting your vulnerabilities as well. But more about that.
Anne Oneil 5:35
No, I will, what a great journey. I love the fact that you wrote like, we're a jingle singer, like people, you know, they might not know that I, when I did Google you it still comes up sometimes as a musician. So yeah, musical artists. And I was like, That is so cool, because I knew a little bit of your background. But I mean, you don't have to be limited to one thing. And also your journey of it taking nine years to go through all of those classes. I think that's one of those things I even bump up against as a perfectionist is will have to be done in a certain timeframe. You know, I have to be the hero, you know, there's a goal has to be a deadline. But sometimes that journey does take you on those on a longer path. And you mentioned Ivan, was that his name? Yes. Good. Alive. Yeah. Good. Oh, Ivan. But it's so it's so great that you meet people along your journey, who maybe just open that door for you a little bit and see what's possible out there for you. And I think you're that person for me even listening to your incredible, incredible podcast and and your book. So I'm so excited to talk about both. Where would you like to start? Because both are just so like, impactful? The perfectly hidden depression. You that came out in 2019? Yes. And then your podcast came out just a few years ago, and already has 4 million downloads,
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 6:52
yes, and growing. So let me let's start with perfectly hidden depression. Actually, I never intended to write a book. I was very happy as a therapist. But when my son left for college, I had some time on my hands. And I got some encouragement from a local entrepreneur and friend of mine, she's right. You know, you. You speak all the time and you talk to patients, why don't you tell me your stories? And I was dealing with emptiness. So I thought, all right, but that I got bored was talking about. And I started thinking, Okay, well, what? What do I What else do I do that? Well, I'm a mental health professional, I can talk about that. And the more it the more I did it, the more I loved it. And so I wrote a weekly blog post. In one week, I was thinking about these people, and that came in my office and would frankly deny if I said, Are you depressed? Oh, no, I hear I'm depressed. I'm here because I'm not sleeping well, or I'm having problems with my relationship, or I don't really know why I'm here. My best friend said you'd helped her and I thought maybe I'd come talk to you. So I was puzzled by these people, because they looked a little more anxious than they did anything else. And yet, that didn't quite pan out, either. And I started thinking about what are the common threads about these people who are really in very tight control of their lives. And the thread was that they didn't know how to talk about or express. They knew how to identify and not express their painful emotions. And so I grabbed a term out of the air, the perfectly hidden, depressed person are you. And for the first time the post went viral. When I was on the HuffPost, I was writing for HuffPost at the time, they put it on there and the next in the next 24 hours, I must have gotten 400 emails. What is this how it's like you're in my head? How do you know this exists? And I got curious, frankly. And so this was 2014. And I went out and I started looking at the just a popular literature I found Dr. Brene Browns work, which is phenomenal, about imperfection and vulnerability and shame. There was also a book by Terence real that was written in 1998. It was about culvert depression in men also a very good book, by the way, I don't want to talk about it as the name of the book. And And yet, what I didn't see was what was being talked about in the academic literature, which was this real disconnection between perfectionism, depression and suicide. Hmm Brene Brown talked about perfectionism and depression, but I think probably because she's not a clinician, as well, as she only only reports on her true research results. But I was seeing in the academic literature, these people who were doing this incredible research about perfectionism, right? It's growing, and in suicide rates growing and if there was a correlation, especially in the type of depression of perfectionism. Well, you're constantly trying to meet other people's expectations of you. I mean, everyone's your children's, your loss, your friends, your family, your community, you are spread out so far and so thin. And you, you know, you look like you've got it all under control. But the problem is that it's kind of like being on a treadmill, when you are not in control of either the incline or the speed. You can imagine, you don't know how fast you're supposed to go. And so, or how long you're going to be on it. And these people tend to end their lives, more moreso than other kinds of perfectionist. So I'm a firm believer is that if you believe that something should exist, and it doesn't, then try to create it. And worse, I want to tell your readers, I mean, your listeners, I was plagued by imposter syndrome. I I'm this I'm not on any kind of fancy faculty. I'm in Fayetteville, Arkansas, nobody knows who I am, which is what by the way. Publishers told me, no one knows a great idea. No one knows who you are. So the way the podcast weaves into that is that I thought, all right. I've been in front of a microphone before. I know, my ends. And my my way around that. And I think I listened to a couple of podcasts. I thought I could do that.
Anne Oneil 11:25
Yes, right.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 11:28
So my 61 year old self at the time, took a class and I was like, Whoa, this is producing some things to me I've never known about. But sure enough, I took the course. And within six weeks, I had published my first podcast, within five episodes, I definitely had my own audio engineer, because I realized I knew nothing about that, right. And, and six years later, we find ourselves with more than 4 million downloads, and only actually more than a million just in this year alone. So it's congratulations,
Anne Oneil 12:04
that is just it's just incredible. And you know, you talked about 1 million downloads just this year, and you just hit your 300th episode, which is phenomenal as well, I really enjoyed listening that one I was so it's so great. And also the fun bloopers at the end. So your audio engineer, makes it makes it fun makes it like that you can again talk about these tough subjects. And it's something that we have in all of us. And you shared so much there about mental health and looking at perfectly hidden depression. And I know one of the synergies that we had and talked about was my athletic background and being an athlete, because that was one of those huge things that I came up against was being a perfectionist. And I was thinking about this coming into the conversation is that we even name things like the perfect game, or the perfect 10 You know, in gymnastics. And just as of the last couple of years, we have more athletes and also actors, but just people in general coming out and talking about taking care of their mental health. What's that been like for you and your industry and also seeing that people are starting to own and talk and make it into the conversation a little bit more into the public space?
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 13:21
Well, I think it's very, very helpful in general, when it's used in order to try to sell a book or something. I mean, I'm a fun one to talk I've wrote. But sometimes that's a little bit mean people like Simone Biles is a great example. She literally just said, I am not in a mental space to perform at the Olympics this time. And I'm not going to hurt my team. And I'm certainly not going to physically hurt myself of some of the other stories about the sexual abuse of athletes, what is going on in the background? And they're still expecting themselves. I mean, what kind of to understand some of the things that happen in every day lives that we are having to overcome or push away or distract ourselves from or something. All of that, that people are beginning to say yes, I've been depressed. Yes, I've been anxious. I have an eating disorder, I bipolar disorder. I have psychosis, whatever it is, and then also people talking about more of the actual trauma that they have been through. And I think that that is also very helpful. Because if you know some people just get this icky feeling when you say the word trauma, I don't have any trauma in my life. What are you talking about? You just want to go back and feel sorry for myself. But, you know, trauma can take a lot of forms. And so I think both of those movements, where people are getting more honest, I mean, I read some of Oprah's new book with Prince Harry, are they they did a documentary, you know what happened to you rather than what's wrong with you? Right, right.
Anne Oneil 14:54
You touched on so many things there. And one of the things I loved your metaphor and analogy and they come out off frequently on your on your self worth podcast, and it does help just illustrate such a picture of being on that treadmill and holding everything together, like, you know, the family life and your work life, and you know, your friendships and even social media and trying to uphold, you know, this curated life that everything is great. And there's so many different layers, like you mentioned, that are in the background, you know, that aren't spoken about. And one of the things I loved about your books was the five C's. And I'd love I know, we can't go on for five hours here. But I'd love for you to touch a little bit about those five C's, because one of them kind of talked to which was the confrontation session where you actually kind of look at some of those beliefs and things that you've had and in the background, and you also talk about consciousness, the very first step commitment, confrontation, connection and change. And even just hearing those five C's, I was like, Oh, I see I see the story and the help I can I can take with those steps. So I'd love for you to expand a little bit on those.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 16:01
Sure, of course. And I have to tell you something funny, when I wrote the book, I thought it was just going to describe this kind of perfectionism that camouflage is an underlying despair or lonely, suicidality. And my publisher, who finally did say, yes, said, Well, we love the idea of the book, but we need a treatment strategy. And you got two weeks. Oh, my goodness, oh, my goodness. Oh, no. So what I did was I really sat down and said, What do we do with every patient and then I will just plug perfectionism into it, which works with every patient who comes in a therapist, or the first thing you're trying to do is help them become conscious of what is problematic. Someone who walks in my door and, and has mood swings that are pretty erratic, and they didn't may not know that, that is called bipolar disorder, or if it is bipolar disorder, somebody who's lived their life, being very depressed, that may be just their way of understanding what life is. And when you say, No, this has a name, you know, you have to become conscious. And then the tricky thing with perfectionism, and you will know this as well. You know, perfectionism is one of my best friends. Perfectionism makes me try harder in practice, right? Yes, and yet, you know, exceed the expectations of my coach. And so, to see perfectionism as a problem, it's like, whoa, wait a minute. And so that in and of itself is the first step. The second one is more about commitment. And there's some particular difficulties and hurdles with perfectionism as committing to changing it, you often try something way too hard, too soon, or process to go really quickly. Because you're just used to wave my you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right? Yes,
the confrontation part is a real cognitive behavioral kind of thing, because you want to look at the rules you're following in your life, but also the beliefs underneath the rules. That's so good. So you know, because basically, last week, I was very sick. And I for the first time that I can remember I had to, I had to bow out of a professional speaking engagement, because I was too sick to actually work on PowerPoint. So I had all these, I will never work again, this word will get around, you know, I'm a flake right now. And I was having, this means I'm not going to be valued. And that's the belief havior might be I can't bow out of this session. And the belief is, I won't be valued. If I do, you know, I won't be valued, I don't meet everybody's expectations. So that's a really good example, which obviously, I had to change my belief about that. The fourth step is compassion. And this is for perfection is probably the harder one for a lot of people, the harder one because you got to go back, and with compassion, and acknowledgement. Think about the child, you were thinking about what happened in your life, that was wonderful. And that was a blessing a blessing in your life. But then also the things that were difficult and added a complexity or a hurt or pain or a fear or an anger or whatever it was, and actually begin to weave together how those experiences affected you. Because you can begin to see patterns. And to see if this hadn't had the me when I was four, I might not have made this choice when I was 14 or 24 or 34. It was amazing to me how many people will say who are in their 40s or whatever and seeing me, you mean something that happened to me when I was five is impacting how I perceive this and the answer that is yes, often it is not in a way that necessarily you are imprisoned by that but it is affecting your perspective. If you haven't sort of studied it and explored it. And then you again want to go back with compassion and say, You know what? Did I learn about the world? When there was no, all that was in the refrigerator was alcohol? What is it? What What was the message to me? You know, I had an alcoholic parent or whatever, that's that's the fact of the matter. But what did it teach me about myself, I have to fend for myself. I mean, begins to set up these perspectives in life. And so you want to go back and acknowledge that and acknowledge some of the pain of that. And then the fifth one, frankly, is change. actually read a book last week, bird steak, kind of challenged his thought, but I've thought about it, I still believe it, I think that you get a lot of insight from when you figure things out. But where you get a lot of hope is when you see your behavior change, when you recognize I'm changing my beliefs about something. And that leads me to be able to do something different. I changed my belief about, I can say, I'm sorry, I'm too sick to do this. I can do that. And challenge my belief that therefore I will be seen as incompetent. That's not true. That's not rational. And so I'm going to change that behavior. Rather than be imprisoned by I must do this, because I said I was going to do it. See the difference? That's where you get kind of hopeful. It's like, Oh, okay. So I changed my behavior. And I feel pretty good about it. So those are the interlocking inner way, interconnected steps have that kind of change that I think everybody has to go through, no matter what it is the problems of perfectionism, or depression, or jealousy, or anger, or whatever it is,
Anne Oneil 21:42
yes, yes, there were so many good parts to that. And I love the exploring at stage. So it doesn't feel like you have to have such a tight grip on ways that you've been or an experience you've had, but almost, you know, kind of looking at it in that observer space where you can have grace to it. And like you said, in that space, be able to see that when you make a new choice, that, you know, things are changing, and then and then it opens up, it opens up a whole new
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 22:11
world. In fact, because hearing our example on ad infinitum, perhaps, you know, doesn't warrant it. But when you say that, I thought immediately, I thought my I was a sickly child. And so sometimes I had to bail out of things, because I was sick. And my defense for that was to never show anybody I was sick. But you can see how that played into even what happened last week with me, I'm still kind of that little girl that wants to none when anybody know I'm sick.
Anne Oneil 22:42
Yes, and I know, when my fire alarm went off, like I really was dealing with my perfectionism then and having to cancel Oh, having to cancel and move because I, I know what a busy schedule you have, and how many incredible speaking events you have. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I really messed up this hour for her, you know, are two hours getting prepared. And so it is like, I've it's almost one of those things like I've committed to this, like I'm going to see it through. And that even goes back to some of like I said, my basketball days, and my academic day is growing up where I had to get straight A's. So we turn things in on time we go to class, you know, to show up, we, you know, I would score so many points, you know, it was just always this kind of obsessive with, again, being perfect or being committed and being driven. It's always that balance, like you mentioned earlier of those that, you know, perfectionism does help you get to some of your goals, but really kind of stepping back and seeing how it might be holding you back as well.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 23:38
There is certainly a constructive perfectionism. It's, it's, it's fueled by generosity and creativity and wanting to give back and just, you know, just drive and wanting to do things. Well, if you're going to be involved in them and wanting to help and wanting to achieve there's nothing wrong with that it is when it gets it's when it's fueled instead by these voices of shame or fear. If if I don't do this, something bad will happen. I'm not in control, if I don't look like I'm in control all the time. If I look like I'm sweating, having a hard time with something, then, you know, somehow that makes me less than and that is the shame and the fear of your vulnerability showing is what destructive perfectionism is more about whether it's constructive, constructive, perfectionism. You know, I can have this interview with you and I can miss up my words or, you know, kind of sound like a little idiotic from time to time and then oh, well, you know, hope she edits that out.
Anne Oneil 24:41
Oh my gosh, I've had to learn that too. Yes, definitely. Even just starting this podcast and being you know, out here and knowing I'll change my headphones or we're going to edit that out. You know, it's it's just one of those things. I think I told you. Yeah, or leave it in two. I love those bloopers, like you said, is that you know, I didn't even really get on social media until 2019. Because my perfectionism was holding me back. And so wow, you know, I listening to your work reading this book, it has helped me so much and making those tiny, tiny choices. So I'd love to, I'd love to touch base on the book came out perfectly hidden depression, how to break free from the perfectionism that masks your depression, I have it right here in front of me. I have the regular copy, I have the audible, it's just all great. You guys can find it everywhere. But this came out in 2019. And I'd love to hear from your perspective, what's shown up because we've had, we had the huge pandemic where everyone had to recalibrate. And now we're actually kind of in that recalibration right now of trying to get back to normal life and what's showing up for you in, you know, your podcast, just the conversations you're having. And in the industry, I'd love to hear kind of how that's transformed, because I'm sure in just three years, there's been a lot happening.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 26:03
Yes, it has been in things, you know, I would look out and have a book come out in two months later, or, you know, I've been asked to speak several places, and I had to, you know, and a lot of them were even set up for virtual yet so right. But actually, what I'm finding is that, for one thing, the book is, it's done sort of what I thought it would do, which would be it's a word of mouth book, you know, people host like you and podcasts are still asking me to be on and because I think it's a it's a concept people understand. And it's an every time someone kills themselves that people go What what happened that this gets brought up again. But what has happened for me, interestingly enough, and is that, you know, the books been translated into five other languages, bought by four other countries, it's doing really well. As far as you know, its its reach. But then I have these interesting, I think, fascinating, kind of people reaching out to me, I will tell you that, you know, the most esoteric of it is that the people in Italy at the University of Florence have asked me to speak to a whole bunch of, of mental health professionals. They're in Italy, November. Wonderful, right? We'd love your book, we can't wait to talk to you about this. And the people in Poland were really excited. And they had me on. Well, last week, I spoke to about 150 construction workers.
Anne Oneil 27:35
Oh, what a spectrum, what a spectrum. They're
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 27:37
what's called a cross border, crossbar cowboy church. And they were so open. I mean, I had expected, you know, my stereotype of construction worker, and I'm sure their stereotype of would shrink was like, Ha, yeah, when we come together at 830, in the morning, on a Friday morning, and I just started talking to them. And you could see these little light bulbs going off, you know, in, because actually, in construction, they have one of the highest suicide rates of any occupation, not proficient, you know, professionals and doctors and dentists and that kind of thing. But construction workers and extraction worker, so but here are these rough guys, I'm really rough guys, all ages, all ethnicities, you know, in in, they were listening to me for an hour. And several of them came, I mean, it was 100, over half of them came up to me wanted me to sign my their book and this kind of thing. So it's this concept has a very wide range of audience. Because it's trying to say to people, those things that you think you have to keep hidden things that you think you will be rejected for if you express, you don't and they matter, and they could be affecting your behavior in ways that you don't realize, is an incredibly important message.
Anne Oneil 28:59
I had what a great story, you know, to go from academics in Florence, the University of Florence to construction workers, because, again, this is a topic that affects everyone, you know, no one's left out. And you talk about that in episode 300. The construction workers it's amazing, a good another great episode. We'll put that in the notes for everybody to listen to, but and how do you see the industry growing or even your you know, occupation growing and your impact? Because, like you said, self worth, or self worth podcast just has a million downloads even just this year and growing and growing and growing. So how do you see everything kind of kind of blossoming and exponentially growing in the next few years?
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 29:40
I think there's more transparency in the middle Hills field. I myself had a decision to make. About when I started blogging, was I going to talk about my own mental health disorders? i Yeah, I had panic attacks. I had anorexia, bad anorexia in college and still deal with it. You know, sort of a disordered thinking around food from time to time. And certainly my training, I was trained in the late 80s, early 90s would have said, No, you don't ever talk about that. But actually as a personal journey back in, we were moving to VEVO, I was opening my practice here. It was about 1992. And I saw my Angelou she was the poet laureate for President Clinton. And I was so impressed with her. And I went to Barnes and Noble and said, Okay, you know, I want to try to read something of hers, but I just got killed. And I didn't want to read a long book, right? And wouldn't take nothing for my journey. Now. Nothing for my journey now. wonderful group of essays. And there's an essay in there, where she talks about having been voted, like the New York City person of the week, or the person of the month or something. And she got smashed in this bar with some friends of hers. Oh, absolutely smashed. And she sat down in front of this group of men, and this really sloshy voice said, you know, why can I get a man to love me what's wrong with me and made a complete ass out of herself? Right? Okay. And she says in the essay, it's one of those moments when you want to change your last name and move to Canada. had those moments? Yes, yes. And so I read that, and I put the book down. And I said, that's the way I want to live my life. I want to claim my strengths. And what to say, I didn't say this as succinctly as I am right now. I want to claim my strengths. But I also want to claim my vulnerabilities, and I want to bear it about them both. Now, it took me a while to get there. But it is freeing and I can't you know, when you say yes, you know, I got really drunk or Yes, I am an impatient person or Yes, I struggle with control, or Yes, I, gosh, it could be a myriad of issues, security, whatever. But if you allow those both both of those to be and you claim both of them, then you realize that self acceptance, because I don't have to always let you see only my strengths. I don't have to live in my mistakes. You know, I don't have to think oh, the only thing Antonio is going to remember about this interview is that my microt my head to go get my battery. All she'll remember. And I can just say okay, you know, I both of those things exist. And I think that is so inquit as you know, especially perfectionist, for perfectionist, actually for all of us.
Anne Oneil 32:44
Yes, I am like nodding my head because I I've just even needed that conversation. And what a great share from Maya Angelou that opened up that door for you to be like, This is how I want to live and be in my career and life, you know, where they both can coexist, because we've all had those moments where we wanted to change our name and moved to Canada, I think, you know, so many in the listeners here, too. Yeah,
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 33:09
maybe the North Pole actually.
Anne Oneil 33:14
Oh, definitely. I just that just really hit home for me that because I kind of go in ebbs and flows and waves of how much do I want to put out there? What kind of conversations do I want to have? And, and like you said, ever, all of that can exist at the at the same time. And it makes you much more human and in the human experience, when you can have both will. And
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 33:36
there was this little fear inside of me that said, Well, now, Margaret, if you let people know you have panic attacks and or that you've been divorced twice, you know, what if people weren't going to come see you? Well, and my answer that is, maybe they won't. But maybe someone else would go, You know what? I'm glad she's being honest.
Anne Oneil 33:56
Yes, and it's so much more relatable, because you know that other people, I always think of that if I'm feeling something, there has to be someone else that has either had this experience or has this feeling before and that's what your book really opened up that there were other people with this perfectly hidden depression that, you know, we're coming in and now listening to the self work podcast, so I feel like it's only blossoming and opening up so many more doors and conversations for people.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 34:23
I hope so. You know, I shared with you I just did an interview myself. I was the interviewer with Erin Gallagher, whose son she's the Interim Executive Director of this is my brave and her son died by suicide several years ago. And, you know, they had no idea. There's a whole story there. But the point is that there is this kind of depression. And what I'm excited about is that right now, my extreme focus is on trying to get to mental health professionals and only the gym. no public, I'm obviously trying to get to the general public, but to mental health professional saying, we are missing this, missing this presentation, and I have missed it myself. And so, in fact, I opened the book with a story about how I missed it. And it was nearly fatal for the person that I hadn't gotten I just had. So, you know, it's, it's widening, broadening our understanding of an enormous realizing that you can have these feelings of wanting to hurt yourself of wanting to die even, and that there are a lot of people who have that. And then they don't realize that that's something that you can work through. You want to go back and understand people's Oh, and if I admitted that I'd be thrown in them some institution, No, you wouldn't. And so you know, you we want to try to help people understand that those kinds of conversations can occur in therapy, and they can occur safely. And your children might need to hear that your, your sisters and brothers might need to hear that your parents or you yourself, and or your friends. So I will continue with this message as long as people will, will allow me to.
Anne Oneil 36:16
Well, and I, I can imagine, with the growth of social media, like you mentioned, dancing on Tik Tok, and how many likes and followers and all those things, these curated picture of life, that it's only growing, that this perfectly hidden depression is growing, because there's this outer face that we can have digitally right now, you know? So is there any recommendations you have for like your friends, or family or close loved ones, of maybe spotting it ahead of time? Or maybe, you know, having kind of a ping go off ahead of time for anyone that, you know, you might be like, Oh, maybe I should talk to that person?
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 36:53
I think the major clue is when you look back, and you think, you know, I don't know anything about her. Growing up. She's never really talked about, you know, she's always happy. She's always smiling. She's always busy. But I don't, I don't know when she went to she had to she have down days, as he have a guy came in who had he came in with a book in his hand, which he says, this is a minor miracle that I would let anyone see me with a book on depression in my hand, you know, very successful, had issues with and struggles with his dad that he'd never talked to anybody about. And anyway, it's, I think this is an issue for me. And there's a lot of workbooks, and which, which is great protectionism and how to confront perfectionism challenge, perfectionism and yourself, all that kind of thing. And I think that work is important. I also think it's important that you know, what happened to you, as Oprah would say, What happened to you to create that need to look so much in control. And that is where the crux of the pain is. And so, if I can, and I'm not sure that message is being sent out, as much as hate perfectionism can be bad, which is true. And that's just start, but there's a little deeper place to go.
Anne Oneil 38:25
I really liked that idea of, oh, I might be missing something I've never heard her talk about, you know, give them something in their past or their childhood, or yes, that was
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 38:36
with them. I mean, we talked about the characteristics of perfectly in depression, in the book, and one of them is their focus on the well being of others, but they just don't let anybody in to see them. And so, these people are great friends, they are, you know, wonderful. They are the, they're the people that are there the first time you you're they learned that your mother in law, went to the hospital and they said, Hey, let me take your kids for the afternoon. I mean, they are, you know, they, they are very attentive to other people, but you don't know when something bad is happening with them. Two.
Anne Oneil 39:10
Really great, really great insights there. I wanted to make sure one quick more question and then I'd love to hop into this as my brave. So So one of the things you know, we talked about on the show is growth mindset. And it is part of you know, looking more towards the future than everything towards the past. And one thing I loved about you and your story, even going back to that Maya Angelou quote and storyline is that you started your podcast that is was it 62 years old? When you started it?
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 39:38
I was 6161 I know, I'll be 68 next week, next month, so yeah, 62 years old.
Anne Oneil 39:45
Oh, my. Like, it's just amazing that you know, you keep growing within your own career and like expanding for other people. What is what does that future look like for you of your impact and your life? See, because it seems like you're just kind of getting started really like you're there's so much more impact even to be had yet and how much you're even growing in your own life?
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 40:10
Well, it's been a lovely conversation between me and my son who is now 28. And I remember one time, because he's doing some really nice things with his life, both as a person, I like the person he's becoming, I like, what he's doing with his life. And I just said, it's just been so interesting and wonderful to watch, you grow. And he looked at me goes, Mom, I like watching you grow, too. It's like you don't stop. You know, when you're 45, I work with people all the time, who say I just don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. And I say, just look around for opportunities. I appreciate you saying that. I will say as as you age, and certain things start happening, that you are unexpected, that it's a little harder to maintain your energy. But that kind of vulnerability, and that kind of sense of caution, five, oh, you know, I don't know how much time I have left, I want to use that time to help my you know, to help others and to keep on with my mission. But I was 44 or five years old. When I first got a little note from somebody, I was at a show with her I was in little, Little Night Music. And she handed me the sweet note, just because I hope when I'm older, I'm just like you and I thought, I'm just 40
Anne Oneil 41:29
I love that
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 41:31
it was really sweet. Because there was something about, you know, what I was doing with my life. And that said, she and I still, if I can be that for other people, men, women, or whatever, or gender identity, I want to do that. And but I realized I also I'm a, I'm a white woman who was reared in the south of, you know, my family had means. So there's a lot about life that I don't understand. But I have also worked in wanted to work with a lot of different kinds of people. I love that about my practice in fairly rural part of Arkansas, because it's, I have seen people who are come from all walks of life. And so and learned from all of them. So I do think that you, you know, you're you're keeping your energy focused on what you do have control over and there's a lot you don't, but I could have when they said nobody knows who you are. I could have said, well, you know, you're right. And I just could have, you know, I said I guess I'll just keep on publishing blog post instead, I said, what, what can I do about that? Yes, yes. Yeah, it's been as successful as it has been. It's, you know, that's one thing that's, you know, a probably a myriad of factors. But so, you know, your priorities change, and that's good. And yet the you still want to find a place for your energy in life. And I don't think about what I've accomplished in the past, I think about, okay, what's going to bring my own life, fulfillment and just energy and curiosity and love curiosity?
Anne Oneil 43:08
Yes, yes. I mean, you can see you are just radiate on the screen and your energy is so high, telling these stories and throughout your podcasts, I mean, it is it's just such a bright light, I think, again, it is a highlight of the day to be able to listen to you and just be here in this conversation. Because you can, you can tell it's only really blooming, like it's so cool that you're continuing to look looking ahead and putting your energy towards your mission.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 43:37
I have to tell you what my grandmother used to say, okay, it was not my real grandmother, she was my, we claimed each other as grandmother and granddaughter. She was actually my real grandmother's like third or fourth cousin. But she said the most important thing she lived to be 104. Oh, my goodness. And she said, The most important thing after you're 90 is to get up in the morning, and to go into the mirror in the bathroom and look at the red person in the mirror and go. Good morning, whoever you are.
Anne Oneil 44:05
Oh, my gosh. That's great. That's wonderful.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 44:09
So sometimes, my husband will go what are you saying? And I'll say I'm saying good morning, whoever you
Anne Oneil 44:14
write, I'll I love that. Because there are so many different lives that we've all had in the past. You don't you don't look the same as you used to. That's so good. Good morning, whoever you are, and then go create whoever you want to be for that day. Oh, so good. All right. So we wanted to talk real quick about this is my brave. And you mentioned that you were talking with Aaron earlier, but basically the gist of you get the gist. Yeah, you get the gist. That's one of Dr. Margaret's lines from her podcast. So this is my bravest storytelling saves lives. You've shared incredible stories already on this episode. So there's gonna be so many incredible takeaways, but talk a little bit about your experience of share. sharing your story and just kind of your relationship with this as my brave,
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 45:04
I actually had contacted them. I heard about this my bribe, and I wanted to produce a show for them here in Northwest Arkansas. And they had already someone had already contacted them. So, so I kept in touch with Jennifer Marshall, who is the co founder. And in fact, she wrote the foreword for the book, which was lovely. And so but then I decided that I would be on it, I would try to see what that would be like. And so I got on, and did a show here in Northwest Arkansas as a participant, again, talking very transparently about my own panic disorder. I told a funny story in the thing, because I was going to this psychiatrist, he wasn't very good. Yeah. And his, his wife was his receptionist, and it was the 1980s. And she had the big bangles on and lots of perfume and the Raven colored poofed out lots of perfume, you could smell her perfume as soon as you walked in. And she came over to me one time and she sat down by me. She goes, Margaret, can I ask you a question? She goes, what exactly is wrong with you? Oh, my gosh. And I said, Well, I have panic disorder. She goes, You just so normal?
Anne Oneil 46:17
Oh, my gosh, that there this was written even before your you actually wrote the book how amazing, right?
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 46:24
I needed to look perfectionistic. So anyway, you know, it's been a joy to try to, I got a lot out of that experience. It's on YouTube, if anybody wants to look at it. It was very humbling to talk about, you know, what it feels like to really have a panic attack. Right. And so, and this is my brave has gone on, they started out nationally. Now they're international day, of course, cutback during COVID, as well. But now they are expanding. They're doing one on college athletes and a virtual conference. They're doing one on veterans, they basically ask that people volunteer to either read a poem that they've written or to sing a song or do a, some kind of actress speak, just speak about their mental illness and how they have thrived within it. And I think it's an extremely important message, and they need funds. And so this is my brave is a wonderful, wonderful project.
Anne Oneil 47:19
And I've, like I said, I've met with them and can't wait to share my story at some point with them as well. And you can go to this as my brave.org. And they're on social media, of course. And again, just such an authentic place and a vulnerable place where people are sharing stories, and, and you can hear yourself in them. You know, I you know, definitely even watching your YouTube share that was, you know, again, so vulnerable to be able to go back and tell those stories to help someone else. You're paying it forward all the time. Yes, yes. Well, Dr. Margaret, we went over time, of course, I probably I figured I would. But I luckily didn't go over by a few more hours, I just want to say, thank you so much. This was just a profound conversation, even just for me within this hour with a friend. But gosh, there's so much to take away. And I just want to thank you so much for the impact you're having on on so many, the listeners, and everyone is just I can see it just only getting bigger and brighter for you.
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 48:19
Well, you know what, that's not going to be my goal, I'm just going to move toward whatever happens. And if it gets brighter, that's wonderful. But I try not to be too attached to what's going to happen, because then then I can try to make that happen. And that usually gets in my way.
Anne Oneil 48:36
Right? Then we go right back to that perfectionism. It's just who you are, you can just see the magnetism of who you are and the impact and the goodness you're bringing out for people. And like I said, everyone can use this kind of conversation. Like you're just having a coffee and hanging out in Fayetteville and you know, talking about the things that can help propel you forward you know, and once you kind of take the you know, explore like that what Nick said missions
Dr. Margaret Rutherford 49:01
have been wonderful and yours be your own spirit is very engaging and
Anne Oneil 49:06
oh, well, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to have you here. Okay. Thank you Well, thank you so much for listening to our conversation. If you have a GBL story in your life. Share it with me on Instagram at get busy living underscore pod. I might just share your story on a future episode. Thank you for sharing in the good vibes and giving back and GBL being with us.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai